Dear bobojp,
this might be a long letter, and you need not to read it in detail. I write it to a big extent for me, to sum up where we are, and to sketch where we might continue. But after this letter I intent to address you with a shorter toot, too.
This letter is also the initial post in the phpBB thema-thread "abolitionniste <---> bobojp" at "Náměstí Praha 3" https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewforum.php?f=1 . For this thema I also introduce the tag #tg601749156 .
I had noticed you before, mainly because of Ukraine, and I believe that we are aligned here: Ukraine must win.
But now, we have reached an agreement about the list of 265 MEPs of three political groups in the European Parliament: S&D, RE and G/EFA. I would like to record it here:
First, there was my toot:
7.7. 9:27 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 0776154391 :
> @bobojp , Great! 🙂 🇪🇺 🇺🇦
>
> The more EU languages we cover the better.
>
> I propose some rules of our cooperation:
>
> 1) Each of us does a little; as little as they wish.
>
> 2) One can drop out any time withou any hard feelings.
>
> 3) Our cooperation is a little more than tooting, boosting and faving.
>
> Perhaps, you may look here, whether you may join me in that intermediate statement:
>
> https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1084#p1084
>
> These are MEPs of S&D, RE and G/EFA political groups.
>
> Ask. I explain 🙂
The toot corresponds to this post on "Náměstí Praha 3": https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1088#p1088 . And you replied:
9:47 bobojp https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112744099176653626 :
> OK. I recognised deputies from Renaissance in there (Mr. Macron’s party). I’m guessing the others are of similar background.
In which case, I can gladly support this list.
Then again me:
10:45 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 9953863899 :
> @bobojp , I very happy about this agreement 🤝 🎉 🍷
>
> The European Parliament page with links to the political groups pages: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-pa ... cal-groups
>
> S&D : https://www.socialistsanddemocrats.eu/
>
> RE: https://www.reneweuropegroup.eu/
>
> G/EFA: https://www.greens-efa.eu/en/
>
> The names in our(!) list are based on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... %932029%29 as of 2.7.
>
> I noticed there are already some additions to some of our(!) groups, we will update the list when we find better data...
And you faved this toot which I consider the final seal on our (abolitionniste+bobojp) agreement. Great! Huraah!
I intend to consolidate(?) the agreement in the next post.
Now, having this agreement, and I hope, also some understandig that we want to cooperate, we may discuss where to go further. I have no strong views about it, but I shall try to sketch some possibilities. The direction I am thinking about is the goal to extend our (abolitionniste+bobojp) list of MEPs so it contains 361 names. And this directions connects to where we entered our conversation on Saturday; and it also connect to the result of the yesterday's second round of législatives. For that result I am very happy. I celebrate. I enjoy.
On Saturday, our entry to a conversation, was my toot:
6.7. 04:39 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 8608135585 :
> I'm not sure whether I understand the French enough, but this text seems relevant (to our activities?):
>
> https://theconversation.com/pourquoi-le ... che-233845
>
> If you go through the French text, I would be happy for your impressio
The toot corresponds to this post at "Náměstí Praha 3": https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1080#p1080 .
You kindly replied:
08:46 bobojp https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112738198059015866 :
> The text defines what extreme left is, in order to establish that the Nouveau Front Populaire is not extreme left, but just (normal) left.
And some conversation on that theme issued:
09:26 xChaos https://f.cz/@xChaos/112738361793089629 :
> For me, discussing what are left, radical left and extreme left positions and policies definitely makes sense.
7.6. 01:17 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 3875225714 :
> For me, the words "left", "extreme", "normal" are not helpful. But, if I use them... 'left is good'.
This toot correspond to the "Náměstí Praha 3" post: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1081#p1081
01:32 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 5097729415 :
> For me, the words 'left', 'radical' and 'extreme' are not very useful. I am not happy with conceptual splitting of 'non-extreme left' and 'extreme left'. I may try 'left is good' but 'only some left is good' doesn't appeal to me.
This toot is reflected in "Náměstí Praha 3" post: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1082#p1082 .
09:01 bobojp https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112743919759525808 :
> I agree with left is good. I do vote socialist when my assessment of the leader is positive. But I do draw a line with extreme left, which as per the definition in the submitted text is revolutionary in essence and to me aims at levelling things from and for the bottom.
10:01 xChaos https://f.cz/@xChaos/112744155979383296 :
> I see pople from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place_Publique which seems to be more centre-left alternative to more radical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_France_Insoumise
>
>I admit, that European political life is quite complex, with local parties in many countries not necessarily having straightforward counterparts in other parties (but they use EP fractions to find each other and affiliate)
>
> We, Pirates, were just accused on one Czech discussion forum (nyx.cz), that our MEPs voting is alligned with Die Linke. This is quite complex, because on the other hand, ECR voting seems to be aligned with ID member parties, and so on...
10:14 bobojp https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112744207258089251 :
> I did vote for Raphaël Glucksmann (Place Public) for the European election. He’s very strongly pro EU and pro Ukraine, and I like his ideas in general.
>
> But then they associated for the legislative elections with LFI (Melenchon) which is a shame.
10:21 bobojp https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112744233300286843 :
> Place Public is basically what is left of French Socialist Party these days.
10:27 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 7519834299 :
> First, I pray for the French voters to vote today in all cases against RN (Le Pen). I don't know if there is a case of LFI (Mélenchon) candidate standing against RN candidate, but if yes, in this case, vote LFI.
10:34 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 3957873419 :
> @bobojp , I understand your view.
>
> These are difficult (and emotinal?) matters.
>
> I do belive it is time for a broad and wide coalition; not for an indeological purity 🙂
>
> But, we two, you and me, let us concentrate first on where we are in alignment without much effort...
And then we had ther results of législatives.
It seems to me that we have to forget do define ourselves and our oponents in terms of left and right. That political landscape is a thing of the past. The are now more important dimensions which sould define our side(?). And I want a poistive definition. It is not enough for me to define ourselves(?) as non-RN (Le Pen). And, that, for me, also includes, thinking about whether we must / should really exclude this or that kind of left. And if yes, that perhaps we should have other definition of the excluded, a definition which doesn't contain the world 'left'. We do not exclude them, because they are left, but because something else, which they may perhaps share with RN (Le Pen).
Ok, these are only vague thoughts. I am very interested what you thing.
Yours, abolitionniste
@xChaos@mastodon.pirati.cz
#tg601749156
abolitionniste <---> bobojp
Re: abolitionniste <---> bobojp
#tg310140376
Re: abolitionniste <---> bobojp
08:21 bobojp https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112749425269201727 :
> On the French side, I tend to exclude La France Insoumise (LFI). They were accused of antisemitism and made pro Hamas statements. The Leader, JL Melenchon, tends to be vulgar, insult journalists, is self-centred, and is against everything on principle. LFI makes anti police statements on a regular basis. They are usually on the side of criminals.
@bobojp@theblower.au, I understand your position / sentiments towards LFI (Mélenchon).
People / institutions are neither white nor black.
I want a broad coalition.
I want LFI and their voters rather on my side, than on the side of RN (Le Pen) - or worse.
I want to find ways, including ways of my heart, which enable me to take LFI as a political partner and which enable LFI to take us(??) as a political partner.
It may not be easy, but what is the alternative?
@xChaos@mastodon.pirati.cz
#tg601749156 #tg310140376
> On the French side, I tend to exclude La France Insoumise (LFI). They were accused of antisemitism and made pro Hamas statements. The Leader, JL Melenchon, tends to be vulgar, insult journalists, is self-centred, and is against everything on principle. LFI makes anti police statements on a regular basis. They are usually on the side of criminals.
@bobojp@theblower.au, I understand your position / sentiments towards LFI (Mélenchon).
People / institutions are neither white nor black.
I want a broad coalition.
I want LFI and their voters rather on my side, than on the side of RN (Le Pen) - or worse.
I want to find ways, including ways of my heart, which enable me to take LFI as a political partner and which enable LFI to take us(??) as a political partner.
It may not be easy, but what is the alternative?
@xChaos@mastodon.pirati.cz
#tg601749156 #tg310140376
Re: abolitionniste <---> bobojp
8.7. 11:48 bobojp https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112750240385758389 :
> @abolitionniste @xChaos I can understand a coalition including LFI, if they are not in the leading position. The problem with NFP is that they are lead by LFI, which is the most extremist among them, and it doesn’t make a lot of sense…
22:06 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 8539817629 :
> @bobojp , yes, that is what I feel (I am not sure!), we (abolitioniste+bobojp) should start to conteplate. And we may leave the details, such as LFI not in the leading position, to the politicians 🙂
>
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lec ... es_de_2024
22:23 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 5391321101 :
> @bobojp , I can't explain myself even to myself, but I feel, if I / we(?) want to build a broad coalition able to govern the Union, including the member states, in (for me / us?) desirable direction, I / we(?) must try to include what is now labeled 'extreme' or 'radical' or 'hard' left. And if I / exclude something, then the reason should not be that they are too far left, but something else. I can't explain myself even to myself 🙂
22:30 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 4550615458 :
> @bobojp , perhaps... Perhaps, in order to counter the narrative, that the Le Pen's people are the real people, basically good, their needs and demands are reasonable, and they are only led astray by... By the populist leaders?... No, there *are* defferent / opposing sets of values(?).
>
> So far, I am only able to name them non-Le-Pen, or good, or left, which all three names are very unsatisfactory 🙂
@bobojp@theblower.au , I guess conversation you - me may have been burried under the debate Veza85UE@eupolicy.social - me. I am sorry for that. Perhaps, I should not have tagged you in all that. For you and me, I believe, we have the '265' agreement and, I guess, we are very gently exploring the ways how to think and feel about so called 'radical' or 'hard' or 'extreme' left. I am very open to your suggestions where we go further 🤝
#tg601749156
> @abolitionniste @xChaos I can understand a coalition including LFI, if they are not in the leading position. The problem with NFP is that they are lead by LFI, which is the most extremist among them, and it doesn’t make a lot of sense…
22:06 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 8539817629 :
> @bobojp , yes, that is what I feel (I am not sure!), we (abolitioniste+bobojp) should start to conteplate. And we may leave the details, such as LFI not in the leading position, to the politicians 🙂
>
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lec ... es_de_2024
22:23 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 5391321101 :
> @bobojp , I can't explain myself even to myself, but I feel, if I / we(?) want to build a broad coalition able to govern the Union, including the member states, in (for me / us?) desirable direction, I / we(?) must try to include what is now labeled 'extreme' or 'radical' or 'hard' left. And if I / exclude something, then the reason should not be that they are too far left, but something else. I can't explain myself even to myself 🙂
22:30 abolitionniste https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 4550615458 :
> @bobojp , perhaps... Perhaps, in order to counter the narrative, that the Le Pen's people are the real people, basically good, their needs and demands are reasonable, and they are only led astray by... By the populist leaders?... No, there *are* defferent / opposing sets of values(?).
>
> So far, I am only able to name them non-Le-Pen, or good, or left, which all three names are very unsatisfactory 🙂
@bobojp@theblower.au , I guess conversation you - me may have been burried under the debate Veza85UE@eupolicy.social - me. I am sorry for that. Perhaps, I should not have tagged you in all that. For you and me, I believe, we have the '265' agreement and, I guess, we are very gently exploring the ways how to think and feel about so called 'radical' or 'hard' or 'extreme' left. I am very open to your suggestions where we go further 🤝
#tg601749156
Re: abolitionniste <---> bobojp
13:17 bobojp https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112756251797031629 :
> @abolitionniste My childhood best friend is Communist, from a very politically active family. I found out that he wouldn’t ever vote for any other party, even to block the RN, because his views are totally different and incompatible with other views, which are not revolutionary I guess.
> It’s a kind idea to want to include extreme left people, but they will exclude themselves very firmly. And on my side, as I need to clarify, there are lines that I will not cross and some people that I will not associate with, on principle. As mentioned, extreme left is a stretch too far for me.
@bobojp@theblower.au , I am glad you have this personal experience and thank you for sharing. I have a personal experience with 'extremists'(??) too.
I also understand there are people that you will not associate with. There is many people I do not associate with either.
You and me, we are a small(!) 'association'. And in this association we talk and think and agree about other 'associations'. About the 'association' of these 265 MEPs. About the 'associations' of NFP in «l'Assemblée» etc...
#tg601749156
> @abolitionniste My childhood best friend is Communist, from a very politically active family. I found out that he wouldn’t ever vote for any other party, even to block the RN, because his views are totally different and incompatible with other views, which are not revolutionary I guess.
> It’s a kind idea to want to include extreme left people, but they will exclude themselves very firmly. And on my side, as I need to clarify, there are lines that I will not cross and some people that I will not associate with, on principle. As mentioned, extreme left is a stretch too far for me.
@bobojp@theblower.au , I am glad you have this personal experience and thank you for sharing. I have a personal experience with 'extremists'(??) too.
I also understand there are people that you will not associate with. There is many people I do not associate with either.
You and me, we are a small(!) 'association'. And in this association we talk and think and agree about other 'associations'. About the 'association' of these 265 MEPs. About the 'associations' of NFP in «l'Assemblée» etc...
#tg601749156
Re: abolitionniste <---> bobojp
@bobojp@theblower.au , how is it going in «l'Assemblée»?
I don't want you or me directly associate with LFI (Mélechon). I do want the other parts of NFP to continue the cooperation they already used for «législatives». And that is one reason I am able to give for my wish: I prefer successful cooperation to continue, to grow, to develop. I guess. What do you think?
#tg601749156
I don't want you or me directly associate with LFI (Mélechon). I do want the other parts of NFP to continue the cooperation they already used for «législatives». And that is one reason I am able to give for my wish: I prefer successful cooperation to continue, to grow, to develop. I guess. What do you think?
#tg601749156
Re: abolitionniste <---> bobojp
https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112845600465120873 :
> I have to say I didn’t quite understand the first time… I’m guessing now that you want me to sign on the statement “EU is my home”… which I can happily do, but I don’t speak Czech, and so I don’t know what Timoty stands for exactly.
@bobojp@theblower.au ,
Good. First: the language issue. It is connected to: the following three 'accounts' are all me, the same person behind the keyboard:
https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionniste - EN
https://f.cz/@tymoty - CS
https://trojkatretiho.cz/memberlist.php ... ofile&u=59 - CS EN
What is your preferred language for expressing yourself? FR or EN?
🧵abolitionniste <---> bobojp🧵 1: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1095#p1095 7: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1136#p1136
#tg601749156 #tg421100420 #MyHomeEU #tg286917386 #BabelEU #tg615744257 #EnglishEU #tg548170790 #MacaroniEU
> I have to say I didn’t quite understand the first time… I’m guessing now that you want me to sign on the statement “EU is my home”… which I can happily do, but I don’t speak Czech, and so I don’t know what Timoty stands for exactly.
@bobojp@theblower.au ,
Good. First: the language issue. It is connected to: the following three 'accounts' are all me, the same person behind the keyboard:
https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionniste - EN
https://f.cz/@tymoty - CS
https://trojkatretiho.cz/memberlist.php ... ofile&u=59 - CS EN
What is your preferred language for expressing yourself? FR or EN?
🧵abolitionniste <---> bobojp🧵 1: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1095#p1095 7: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1136#p1136
#tg601749156 #tg421100420 #MyHomeEU #tg286917386 #BabelEU #tg615744257 #EnglishEU #tg548170790 #MacaroniEU
Re: abolitionniste <---> bobojp
https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112846007303606419 :
> I’m French and Australian, and perfectly bilingual 😉
@bobojp@theblower.au
Yes 🙂
Then, if you are willing to read Czech and Italian and Spanish and other Union languages through automatic translation, I would prefere the experiment with hybridity. If not, it is also completely ok for me to stay with "my" English 🙂
Your choice: (1) French - Czech hybrid. (2) English.
🧵abolitionniste <---> bobojp🧵 1: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1095#p1095 8: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1277#p1277
#tg601749156 #tg421100420 #MyHomeEU #tg286917386 #BabelEU #tg615744257 #EnglishEU #tg548170790 #MacaroniEU
> I’m French and Australian, and perfectly bilingual 😉
@bobojp@theblower.au
Yes 🙂
Then, if you are willing to read Czech and Italian and Spanish and other Union languages through automatic translation, I would prefere the experiment with hybridity. If not, it is also completely ok for me to stay with "my" English 🙂
Your choice: (1) French - Czech hybrid. (2) English.
🧵abolitionniste <---> bobojp🧵 1: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1095#p1095 8: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1277#p1277
#tg601749156 #tg421100420 #MyHomeEU #tg286917386 #BabelEU #tg615744257 #EnglishEU #tg548170790 #MacaroniEU
Re: abolitionniste <---> bobojp
https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112847839651974012 :
> The links are a pain, because it opens them in a web browser like page, inside Mastodon, and then it is asking me to connect to Mastodon…
> Also, would I be the only one signing? I see no-one else…
@bobojp@theblower.au , I am sorry. I understand. I'll try to make it painless 🙂
First, a detour: It is not always the best strategy to avoid pain 🙂 But I'll try to make it painless.
The second detour: I take it you are not for our conversation to be hybrid French-Czech. So, I am staying in English.
Now to the declaration 📃 and to the signatories ✍️ :
I am a collector and keeper of the signatures. Hopefully, one of more such people. I, @abolitionniste@bagarrosphere.fr = @tymoty@f.cz .
There is a multi-lingual version of the declaration, which eventually may be in 23 EU official languages sans English, and which in now available in 3 languages:
🇪🇺📃
🇪🇸 La Unión Europea es mi casa.
🇨🇿 Evropská unie je můj domov.
🇮🇹 L'Unione europea č la mia casa.
📃🇪🇺
I register 5 signatories:
✍️ 1 @abolitionniste@bagarrosphere.fr = @tymoty@f.cz 2 @Pierrette@mastodon.uno 3 @unterwasser@mastodonczech.cz 4 @Veza85UE@eupolicy.social 5 @xChaos@f.cz ✍️
Perhaps the easiest way forward would be, if you create the French line (L'Union européenne est ma maison?) and say that with that additional line you sign the declearation. That would make you the 6th signatory I register.
#tg601749156 #tg421100420 #MyHomeEU
> The links are a pain, because it opens them in a web browser like page, inside Mastodon, and then it is asking me to connect to Mastodon…
> Also, would I be the only one signing? I see no-one else…
@bobojp@theblower.au , I am sorry. I understand. I'll try to make it painless 🙂
First, a detour: It is not always the best strategy to avoid pain 🙂 But I'll try to make it painless.
The second detour: I take it you are not for our conversation to be hybrid French-Czech. So, I am staying in English.
Now to the declaration 📃 and to the signatories ✍️ :
I am a collector and keeper of the signatures. Hopefully, one of more such people. I, @abolitionniste@bagarrosphere.fr = @tymoty@f.cz .
There is a multi-lingual version of the declaration, which eventually may be in 23 EU official languages sans English, and which in now available in 3 languages:
🇪🇺📃
🇪🇸 La Unión Europea es mi casa.
🇨🇿 Evropská unie je můj domov.
🇮🇹 L'Unione europea č la mia casa.
📃🇪🇺
I register 5 signatories:
✍️ 1 @abolitionniste@bagarrosphere.fr = @tymoty@f.cz 2 @Pierrette@mastodon.uno 3 @unterwasser@mastodonczech.cz 4 @Veza85UE@eupolicy.social 5 @xChaos@f.cz ✍️
Perhaps the easiest way forward would be, if you create the French line (L'Union européenne est ma maison?) and say that with that additional line you sign the declearation. That would make you the 6th signatory I register.
#tg601749156 #tg421100420 #MyHomeEU
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