Our compromise

[Tymoty]

In order to help Veza85UE understand what I am trying to do, here I call it "Our compromise". And I am giving the theme the tag #tg561924838.

Some conversation:

6.7.

04:49 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 8608135585 :

I'm not sure whether I understand the French enough, but this text seems relevant (to our activities?):

https://theconversation.com/pourquoi-le ... che-233845

If you go through the French text, I would be happy for your impressions.

8.7.

6:58 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 8535299780 :

POST CLIPPED! FULL TEXT HERE: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1095#p1095

Dear @bobojp ,

this might be a long letter, and you need not to read it in detail.

[...] we have reached an agreement about the list of 265 MEPs of three political groups in the European Parliament: S&D, RE and G/EFA.

[...] we may discuss where to go further.

[...] to forget do define ourselves and our oponents in terms of left and right. [...]

POST CLIPPED! FULL TEXT HERE: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1095#p1095

@xChaos

#tg601749156 #tg310140376

8:21 https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112749425269201727 :

On the French side, I tend to exclude La France Insoumise (LFI). They were accused of antisemitism and made pro Hamas statements. The Leader, JL Melenchon, tends to be vulgar, insult journalists, is self-centred, and is against everything on principle. LFI makes anti police statements on a regular basis. They are usually on the side of criminals. And this is one of the main reasons RN is making such good scores.

9:58 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 5157198739 :

People / institutions are neither white nor black.

I want a broad coalition.

I want LFI and their voters rather on my side, than on the side of RN (Le Pen) - or worse.

I want to find ways, including ways of my heart, which enable me to take LFI as a political partner and which enable LFI to take us(??) as a political partner.

It may not be easy, but what is the alternative?

@xChaos

#tg601749156 #tg310140376

11:48 https://theblower.au/@bobojp/112750240385758389 :

I can understand a coalition including LFI, if they are not in the leading position. The problem with NFP is that they are lead by LFI, which is the most extremist among them, and it doesn’t make a lot of sense…

12:13-12:16 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112750335330548505 + https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112750340993687258 + https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112750348069707761 :

Well, now. My embargo is over so I can finally confess: I don't care about left/right. I'm a normie, I don't have an education or a natural disposition towards Grand Political Ideas. A friend once called our local apparatchiks "ideologycels", right before adding: "This is why you keep getting your arses kicked by the conservatives" and I can't unhear that. I can't take their programme seriously because they were a cobbled together "attelage" (DeepL says that's "combination", "vychytávka" in Czech) of parties who agree on almost nothing and which was never designed for governing or sticking to electoral promises. Initially, they could easily drop whatever demagoguery they wanted on that list just to ensure some safe seats for spineless nobodies like Olivier Faure. Now that there are irl consequences (especially for the ones with 2027 ambitions), well... 😏 things have changed, suddenly organising scarcity (via blocking prices) and blowing up inflation is going to be difficult to implement.
This is where the world of Grand Political Ideas meets the messy flesh of humans involved in politics (this includes us, voters, we incentivise their behaviour).
So good thing job no. 1 is done, the Republic is safe for now, but it's not the programme that's going to matter now, imo.

15:47 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 7391236661 :

I think, it's worth a celebration of the good thing, of the job no. 1 - 🎉 🍷 🎆 . And yes, save the Republic is not a programme for now. We will see what the 'représentants' will do. I would like a common programme of coalition of the whole left and the whole Macronic center - 😇 .

https://www.resultats-elections.interie ... index.html

https://www.resultats-elections.interie ... index.html

18:57 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112751924317461250 :

That would be the most shocking outcome to me given the maturity level, political skill and culture of compromise of what's left of LR and PS, but sure, it's one of the options.
In the meantime a budget with at least SOME level of compliance with the EU's Germany-imposed new-SGP rules will need to be passed. The impossibility of passing it under the old AN triggered the elections And here comes the beauty of democracy: "Well, you did vote to pay higher taxes, your choice." 😉

21:56 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 8179488105 :

these 350? 🤣

Nouveau Front populaire (182)

La France insoumise (74)
Parti socialiste (59)
Les Écologistes (28)
Parti communiste français (9)
Génération.s (5)
Divers gauche (5)
Régionalistes (2)

Ensemble pour la République (168)

Renaissance (102)
MoDem (33)
Horizons (25)
Divers centre (3)
UDI (2)
Agir (1)
Divers droite (1)
Parti radical (1)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lec ... es_de_2024

22:06 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 8539817629 :

... yes, that is what I feel (I am not sure!), we (abolitioniste+bobojp) should start to conteplate. And we may leave the details, such as LFI not in the leading position, to the politicians 🙂

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lec ... es_de_2024

22:23 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 5391321101 :

I can't explain myself even to myself, but I feel, if I / we(?) want to build a broad coalition able to govern the Union, including the member states, in (for me / us?) desirable direction, I / we(?) must try to include what is now labeled 'extreme' or 'radical' or 'hard' left. And if I / exclude something, then the reason should not be that they are too far left, but something else. I can't explain myself even to myself 🙂

22:30 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 4550615458 :

perhaps... Perhaps, in order to counter the narrative, that the Le Pen's people are the real people, basically good, their needs and demands are reasonable, and they are only led astray by... By the populist leaders?... No, there *are* defferent / opposing sets of values(?).

So far, I am only able to name them non-Le-Pen, or good, or left, which all three names are very unsatisfactory 🙂

22:32 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112752769648344142 :

"I want LFI and their voters rather on my side, than on the side of RN"
Keeping in mind that no block is monolithic, this is like me wanting to sprout wings and fly. It's not happening.
"They can go fuck themselves, the Lithuanians, have you ever met one?" The old Trot feels the same way about you, Czechs, Ukrainians, etc. Well, no, he hates Ukraine and contests its right to exist. This is what he spews to his followers (it's not a party, it has no members).

22:35 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112752782723569497 :

You can leave me out then. Sans moi. ;) When I said I don't care about left v. right, I should have added: I feel better represented on a progressive v. reactionary axis rather than left/right. On which Soviet nostalgia and pro-Russian imperialism are deeply reactionary. Same for anti-science politics whether in health or transport/energy/environment. As such, maybe you can help me understand better: are they "far/radical left" and do I care?

22:37 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112752790549028121 :

Is freshly elected MP Benoît Biteau, former Green MEP who compared the covid vaccine to "nazi experiments" far left? Do I care? Was Michelle Rivasi (rip), the Green MEP who invited Andrew fucking Wakefield to the European Parliament far-left? Is EELV, her party which following the scandal acted like nothing happened and placed her 2nd on their EP list again? The PCF, by comparison, is a paragon of rationality.

22:39 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112752799267582531 :

Is attempting to block THE most critical missing rail link between Western and Central Europe far-left? What if the argument against building this tunnel that could take millions of trucks off the roads and reduce pollution in the Alps is some trust-me-bro-I-read-it-on-my-son-in-law's-Facebook level conspiracy nonsense about the new tunnel making the ground water from the Alps disappear into a black hole?

22:42 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112752809490609018 :

El lider mínimo's got plenty of other funny ideas about science-based policy. Mélenchon and Le Pen's vaccine discourse during the pandemic was: give us Sputnik, why are you depriving The People of the Russian vaccine? They also both pushed for hydroxychloroquine in a classic horseshoe formation. Are they far-left? Should I care?

22:43 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112752816285744299 :

Is the guy who called Jews "celestial dragons" far left?

22:47 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112752828803679397 :

Moving on to The Economy, Stupid. Is this lady who has never worked a single day in her life but went to Sciences Po and so feels entitled to confidently spew nonesense about a topic she knows nothing about far left? Here, I think I can confidently answer: "lol, no. This is the classic bougie family-to Science Po-to student politics-to cushy internships-to party apparatchik pipeline typical of blander left movements in most countries, she's nothing special.

22:49 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112752837840863324 :

Is the guru's second choice dauphin (after the one who's a convicted wife-beater had to be dragged out of this election round kicking and screaming) far left? He thinks the far right is too supportive of Ukraine and proudly recaps all the parliamentary votes in which they stood by the pro-Russian position. He only left out the one where they refused to vote to recognise Wagner as a terrorist group. Should I care if he's far left or not?

22:51 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 4121399767 :

I love you 🙂 I love the way you present the things 🙂 I love your enthusiasm 🙂 And I do not disagree with you 🙂

22:58 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 3116714645 :

I am trying, very gently, and with a lot of doubt, to say something different than evaluation of Mélechon's views / statements / whatever.

23:02 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112752890062163477 :

I wouldn't call it enthusiasm, but thanks. 😄 You won't build anything in Europe with toxic and malevolent people. Some are just idiots or genuinely ignorant, but tankies (not just French ones) have no intention of building anything with *you*. They resent you for leaving the "sphere of influence" of their utopia and if given a milligram of power they would not hesitate to use it against you. So as I said, without me. I've already spent too much time on him.

23:08 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 2351062432:

talk to me, please 🙂 I want you in the conversation 🙂 And Mélechon is not the subject / the substance, of what I am trying to say 🙂 And I am absolutely not sure about what I am trying to say 🙂 But please, try to listen and try to understand 🙂

23:22 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 5807044219 :

I want (a vision of) Union-wide coalition(?) / force(?) - not sure how to call it, which is able to / intends to / does(!) 'govern'(?) the Union including the member countries.

For the past 20 or so years it basically was EPP - I know, it is a very unaccurate description but I guess you may know what I mean.

I also guess that you and me agree that to "govern"(?) the Union the "force"(?) must more or less "govern"(?) all the 27 member counties. Consilium! #EUCO!

23:34 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112753014961331095 :

No, that's not needed, it was never the case with the EPP. The EU has always worked as a compromise between a broad centrist arc of pro-EU integration forces (some more than others, but tankies are not and will NEVER be one). Yes, we're stagnating since the last Treaty because too many Europeans inexplicably keep voting for the EPP, but you're not going to get any monochrome coalition ever. And I'm never going to hug reactionaries, so no point in involving me.

23:34 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 5039321475 :

How have the EPP managed to get away with it? Cerainly not by ideological purity and strict requirements on memers(?) / supportets(?) - think Orbán. Does EPP love him? Do they agree with his statements? No. They simply needed and had used his vote in the European Council and in the European Parliament.

You want your reform of the Union. Will you give Orbán or Mélechon few milliards or something else to achieve it, or would you rather be "pure and beautiful"?

23:39 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 4815002375 :

you don't listen to me 🙂 How can you accuse me of wanting a monochrome coalition? I want a polychrome coalition. There are some colours we agree upon - S&D, RE and G/EFA and some colours you refuse 🙂

23:41 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 3282978520 :

I want you involve only in a conversation with me 🙂 There is no other requirement 🙂 Please, continue to talk to me 🙂

23:43 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 0247027880 :

I am very much for a compromise 🙂

23:46 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 2746226602 :

I am 💯 for a "broad centrist arc" - describe your vision of it in terms of current polticians / parties / groups...

23:52 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 6733387586 :

as with the notions of "left", "right", "progressive", "regressive", I do not believe the opposition / aggregation along the lines "pro-EU integration" - "pro-EU disintegration" is useful anymore. I can imagine very integrated and very repulsive Union. I believe, the question is what kind of the Union we(??) want. And I don't have and I don't know about any nice descripition which has a chance of getting enough support to be realised.

23:53 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112753089168776128 :

Doesn't matter what I refuse or not, that's for the EP to play along with your list. In the *Councils* there will always be EPP governments as long as the EPP exists. Ideally, reduced in number and population weight, rather than dominant, but it's not going anywhere, I'm not delusional.

23:56 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112753102916794773 :

I don't need to give the old vatnik anything because he's not going to be around in any position to stop it, so that's one problem solved. And if the current treaty were enforced on Orbán it'd also cost 0 eurocents and set a good fuck-around-and-find-out precedent. And if not, his BMI and his cholesterol levels will do the job. 😉 He's a great driver of popularising the need for reform, more than an obstacle, this is a long game.

23:57 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 3946772952 :

What is the disagreement here?

9.7.

00:00 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112753116883410125 :

"to "govern"(?) the Union the "force"(?) must more or less "govern"(?) all the 27 member counties."

This was the disagreement. The EUCO will always have multiple "forces", not A force governing the 27 member states.

00:00 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 8816588677 :

Well, the names were just examples. Do you suppose that all ugly guys will die and no new will be born? And also: we have to do something now. There are some urgent matters: Ukraine, ecology and such 🙂

00:06 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 2462871187 :

I am repeating it over and over again: what I am trying to do is not monochrome / monolitic / single organisation / or whatever. You may call it 'compromise' if you wish. In order to realise your or mine or anybody's else or any compromise you need votes of 27 member countries and maybe also votes of some MEPs. What is your compromise? How do you get the necessary votes? (I am trying to describe my(?) / some(?) compromise and to describe where I can get the votes.)

00:10 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112753154870915436 :

Start by electing a pro-EU government and sending pro-EU integration, less Meloni-friendly representatives to vote in the Councils then. ;)
I worked with the examples you gave me, one's irrelevant and the other one is the poster boy for why we need EU reform.

Yeah, well... welcome to intergovernmentalism. Member states governments have no intention of moving faster on anything, so think of me as as a veery patient person.

00:15 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112753176662631887 :

You're not getting them from tankies, trust me.
You don't need unanimity for everything, QMV (various shades of it) is sometimes enough.
The current coalition exists already, it includes the EPP because people vote for them, it is what it is, until at least 2029.

00:16 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 9821589192 :

And I claim: we need to do it / something now. Not in five years, not in ten years, not in twenty years. We need to do it with the people and politicians and member counries political parties and political groups in the European parliament and whatever what we have.

00:17 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112753184139602031 :

Need to do what?

00:23 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 6813809608 :

🙂 Sun Tzu is nice 🙂 And I agree 🙂 Yes, we can also talk about the long term 🙂

No. Pro-EU goverment and pro-EU integration is not good relying point. There is not only one Europoen Union future. We may have very different Europoean Unions in the future. Which future European Union you want?

I want to do something else than waiting by the river for the goverments to flow to the European Union future I want 🙂

00:24 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 1490208302 :

defeat Russia? For example?

00:30 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112753233212201033 :

I've answered multiple times, I gave you the link to the report about EU reform that's a grounded starting point, etc. No need to go into details again.
"Do something!" is not a plan. We had 1 European election a month ago. The coalition that emerged from it is not perfect, but it is what it is. That ship has sailed. It won't be doing any legislating with LFI or assorted tankies, not until 2029. You'll have a 2nd EU election for the Councils in 🇨🇿 at some point.

00:32 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112753242919699969 :

So that's your chance to improve your representation in the EUCO and the "Senate".
I'll probably have another one here by the end of the year unless el Perro manages some budget voodoo. I'll once more be doing my part to have good representation in the Councils.

00:46 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 9854593395 :

Well, it is good to vote the good(?) way and to make others to vote the good(?) way. I claim we(?) should do a little more. Very little more. And that something very little more, for you, Veza85UE, and me, might be that we agree on a vision of the European Union which we want and which we are able to sell our compatriots. The Report of 12 is a non starter for people I talk here. I am trying to talk about the Report with you. For example: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=912#p912 .

00:48 https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 7375686740 :

@Veza85UE , Or here: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=997#p997 .

01:45 https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112753530414861952 :

"They simply needed and had used his vote in the European Council and in the European Parliament."

Yeah... that's not what their relationship was fundamentally built on. 😄 They were such a dominant force, his 20 EP votes were the least of their concerns (the EUCO veto they could always buy as they do now). It was about money, lots of it.

So you can't pull an EPP... you can't buy off tankies, they'll always despise you.

https://timesofmalta.com/article/long-r ... wer.922312


@bobojp@theblower.au @Veza85UE@eupolicy.social @xChaos@mastodon.pirati.cz

#tg561924838

[Tymoty]

There was some conversation about what I call now "Our compromise" on Mastodon. In order to perceive the conversation as a whole, I tried to collect the relevant toots in one phpBBB post here: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1099#p1099 .

I intende to add more to the conversation later. For now, I would like to emphasize, that I seek agreements. Perhaps very small agreements. With you, @bobojp@theblower.au , with you, @Veza85UE@eupolicy.social , with you, @xChaos@mastodon.pirati.cz , or perhaps in a small(!) group of some of us or others 🙂

#tg561924838

[Tymoty]

* phpBB

[Tymoty]

Dear @Veza85UE@eupolicy.social , Thank you for our late night 'Mélenchon' debate 🙂 Now, that I collected the toots here: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1099#p1099 I may postpone my intention to elaborate on it, I may step back and take a more fundamental view. I propose you and me look at areas where we are aligned. I hope the following is not far from truth:

*We are inhabitants or citizens of the European Union. You love the Union. I love the Union. We are both interested in how it functions, we wish the Union good and we want to help the good happen.*

If I may assume we agree on this, I next propose what may seem strange to you but I can give some reasons why I choose this proposal:

*Let us start by trying to find a very clear agreement on what the Union is.*

If I allow myself to suppose we agree on this goal, I shall start by giving some my very preliminary and tentative proposals on how our eventual agreement about 'The Union - What is it?' may look like:

*The European Union is an internatinal organisation of sovereign national states similar to other such organisations, in particular similar to the organisation of the United Nations.*

Peace to you

@abolitionniste@bagarrosphere.fr

@bobojp@theblower.au @Veza85UE@eupolicy.social @xChaos@mastodon.pirati.cz

#tg561924838 #tg860818779 #tg243241955 #tg472670899 #tg932794722

[Tymoty]

@Defizit@wien.rocks , Hi, Thank you for the favs: https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 5642799051 + https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 8736546349 🙂

Would you like to cooperate along the lines suggested just a little more than tooting, boosting and faving? I prefer you write German, if it is your primary language 🤝

#tg561924838

[Tymoty]

9:40 Defizit https://wien.rocks/@Defizit/112755396581704208 :

> I am not sure about what you mean with "cooperate" and yes my primary language is German.

@Defizit@wien.rocks , Ok. Use English or German as you wish. I just say I am fine with reading German. My primary language is Czech.

I am also not sure what I mean by "cooperate" 🙂 But I shall suggest that first, you and me do an agreement along the suggested lines "❤️ 🇪🇺 UNO" and second, we discuss and agree where we go from there further. I may have few more suggestion of agreements 🙂 In practice, it may all be done by tooting (and faving?) but through that we achieve explicit agreements.

#tg561924838

[Tymoty]

@MEGA@mastouille.fr , Hi, Thank you for the fav: https://bagarrosphere.fr/@abolitionnist ... 8736546349 🙂

Would you be interested in a cooperation sugested in the above Mastodon "thread"(?) / in the phpBB thread "Our compromise" here: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1106#p1106 ? 🙂

#tg561924838

[Tymoty]

12:15 Veza85UE https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112756009901495519 :

> "The Report of 12 is a non starter for people I talk here."
> They're free to make their own then. The more ideas about Art.7 reform and pasarelle clauses, the better. They can contact Professor Meyer and the rest of the academics involved via the profile pages of their respective institutions. Or they can publish their own proposals.

@Veza85UE@eupolicy.social , Yes. This a 'sí' to your 4 senteces, and by saying 'sí' I completed you pass for an agreement and we did it. We created a small(!) agreement in the world. 🤝

#tg561924838 #tg243241955 #tg657084534

[Tymoty]

9.7. 12:22 Veza85UE https://eupolicy.social/@Veza85UE/112756035786232450 :

> What the Union is is not a matter of agreement between individuals, but of Treaties, laws and the institutions.

@Veza85UE@eupolicy.social , I would like to have yours and mine agreement about what the Union is for you and me:

*For you and me, the European Union is an international organisation of sovereign national states.*

Such position may have a profound effect on how you and me think and feel and speak about the Union 🙂

#tg561924838 #tg472670899 #tg243241955 #tg860818779 #tg657084534

[Tymoty]

@Veza85UE@eupolicy.social , the group of 12 discusses the nature(?) of the European Union as well. Here is the passage in French: https://trojkatretiho.cz/viewtopic.php?p=1116#p1116 .

#tg561924838 #tg472670899 #tg243241955 #tg860818779 #tg657084534